Like they say, all good things must come to an end. I’ve been with CyberTrader since I started trading full time back in 1999. I can’t even imagine how much I’ve spent in commissions with them. That first year I spent about $30,000. It’s certainly dropped over the years, especially when I switched to per-share commissions, but it’s still got to be at least an order of magnitude more than the average Schwab client. Which makes it so astounding that Schwab would push all of CyberTrader’s clients away.
This was the week when Schwab turned off the lights at CyberTrader and moved Cyber’s traders to Street Smart Pro. I haven’t even had the energy nor motivation to even install the damn thing yet because I knew it was gonna be a mess. Looks like I was right. — Dave has a post which details the major issues with Street Smart(?) Pro. I’ve been emailed by at least 4 other people complaining about Street Smart Pro and asking about other options for brokers.
I’ve now come full circle from when I made this post in summer of 2006 asking for broker/platform suggestions. My requirements are basically the same:
- A direct access, non-browser based platform.
- Server-held stops. (This is critical!)
- The ability to set a timed stop, e.g. close this position at 3:58 PM
- Per-share pricing — less than $0.01/share
- A good shortable stocks list (one of my favorite things about CyberTrader)
- Reliability & execution speed
I’m already considering Interactive Brokers and TradeStation. Does anybody have any other suggestions?
I also want to move my long term accounts from eTrade for obvious reasons. For that I’m fine with a more typical online brokerage like Ameritrade. Any recommendations besides Ameritrade?
I’m nervous about Etrade also. You probably received this same “spin control” email:
“As you know, the past few months have been challenging for the financial services industry.
However, there is some good news. E*TRADE FINANCIAL Corp. has recently received a
$2.5 billion capital infusion from one of the world’s leading investment firms. This is a clear vote of confidence, solidifying the ability to deliver the value you have come to enjoy—today and into the future.”
So I guess everything is ok now that they have that clear vote of confidence.
yeah, I got that BS from eTrade. I meant to blog about the message they had on their site the day the sh!t hit the fan. It’s like they expect to get a pass b/c some other financial firms are also in trouble. To hell with that! Just because there are 5 other idiots in the room doesn’t give you a pass to be an idiot as well.
But I’m over it. :d
i currently use SSpro. I thought the platform and exicution was good until a few different things happened. From there I started doing platform reserach.
I think im going to tradestation
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1714165#post1714165
For your long-term account, check out thinkorswim.com. I just opened a ROTH IRA with them. I’m not sure if you hold mutual funds in that account, but you get 3 free mutual fund trades per month and cheap commissions.
snugglepuppy666 (interesting handle), thanks for the link. I plan on digging through that thread this weekend.
Phillip,
Thanks, I’d forgotten about ThinkorSwim. I think Andy & the DayTradeTeam guys like them as well. I’ll take a look at them.
Get both TS and IB. The commission is about the same at both places, but here’s why.
You always need a backup no matter what. If you do most of your trading at IB, and have TS as as backup, you can trade at TS just enough shares to get TradeStation and RadarScreen for FREE. The activity threshold is very low http://www.tradestation.com/fees/platform_fees.shtm
And in case you ever have to make a trade while you are away from your own computer, the browser version of the IB TWS is basically the same thing as the installed version.
You have the best of all worlds that way.
Cheers,
T.
Teresa,
Thanks for the input. I’ve always had issues with the idea of having my money in two places. I could see doing that if I had a daytrading account and a separate swing trading account but outside of that it just seems like extra complexity & time.
The thing about the IB web interface is interesting though. That could be useful for trading from my Mac.
Trading from the Mac? IB’s trader workstation runs on the Mac too. Not just the browser version.
I run IB’s Trader Workstation on my Linux box, and do my charting hooked to my Ameritrade account and QuoteTracker.
IB’s charting using Trader Workstation is a true snail.
Reliability is an issue with IB. They’ve been getting better over the past few months. The stops are on the server, however.
I built a small program to assist me with order entry, as their UI doesn’t work well with my style of trading. The configurability of orders is pretty good, especially with their API.
Feel free to contact me for more info.
If you are sure you don’t want to explore the TS platform, then go with IB. They’re java all the way, and cross-platform.
I have been with cyber since 1999 also, and am really bummed with Schwab and streetsmartpro. The data feed isn’t as stable and customer service has no clue about trading. I am lost as to where to go, was thinking teranova, but I my gut says no….
Goodbye Cyber, Thanks for the run….
Try Thinkorswim.com
Customer service is fantastic. I am sure they meet all your requriments but the shortable stock list. Also they have a process called autotrade where you could develop a service for your customers and trade for them in their account. I am suscribed to RedOptions and it works fine. You could be selling a similar service to other clients like me.
Check out MB Trading. Pricing is about the same as IB. Customer service is top notch. Not sure about their short list or timed stops. They do not offer web based trading … must install their software. Here’s their web site.
http://www.mbtrading.com/default.asp
Tim
Try ThinkorSwim. I’ve been to several brokers, but this is the best by far, in terms of customer service (in a class by themselves), platform’s reliability/performance/features, and options services. Commissions are higher than IB, but active traders can negotiate, since they’re quite flexible.
They’re willing to match most (if not all) of your broker’s fees, as far as I know (works for me.) Recommended by Barron the last few years as best trading platform (non-browser, although recently they also provides browser-based platform.) I don’t short often (use puts instead), so not sure about their shortable list.
Mike -
You gotta try Think or Swim!!
This is a world class organization. Amazing customer service and the best platform out there.
Give em a buzz and ask for Scott Sheridan 866-839-1100 xt. 3290
Tell them John from Legacy Trading told you to check them out and ask for the “hook the brother up” trade commish discount. They will even pay for your internet.
John
BTW, you can just register at ThinkorSwim website without actually opening an account, then download their software to try out. The platform also allows “simulated trading” with 100K paper money, so you can get familiar with their setup. If one manages to blow out the 100K, it’ll be replenished. Too bad it’s not real $$$!
“the ‘hook the brother up’ trade commish discount…” =)) You know I’m gonna ask for that!
Thanks guys, ThinkorSwim is on the list as is MB.
Etrade is giving unlimited commission free trades on December 19th… Take advantage of it before dumping them ! Do not know if this offer is for all customers.
Am I the only one who finds IB’s TWS painfully non-intuitive? IB is good at many things, but it’s definitely for the hard core.
E*Turd can keep their *free* trades. I’d lose so much in slippage and the clowns would still be getting paid for my order flow…
Now now, that kind of mood is not very productive
(
You have a long term account with them so if you want to liquidate anything before transferring elsewhere, you might as well do it for free. What part of free don’t you like ????
I have to put in another vote for Thinkorswim. I just started with them after leaving Ameritrade and I love them. Great customer service and low comissions
Sylvain,
My motto has always been “if it’s free I’ll take two”. But sometimes free isn’t free.
I don’t plan on liquidating my holdings in my e*trade account, unless their stops get hit. So for me just making trades on the 19th b/c they’re *free* wouldn’t make any sense. I think it’s a weak offer too. If they want to give free trades why not give each person X free trades over the next month or something like that. Me thinks there are clowns running eTrade
Apparently there are clowns running Schwab too :d
No doubt!
)
You obviously do not like Etrade but are you actually worried about losing your money if you leave it there ? Even if they went bankrupt, you could still get your money back ?!?
My long term accounts and some of my banking are with them.
Cute smiley BTW
Thinkorswim.com is the best out there
If your a momentum day trader who relies on prints / time & sales price action info, forget Thinkorswim ! I’ve compared them to other platforms @ the same time. Until you do you don’t know what you’re not seeing.
Sylvain,
I’ve wanted to leave eTrade for a few years now but I was never motivated to do so. There are just little things that bug me about their platform and the way they do things. The latest of which is that you can no longer enter a GTC order. For some reason they now expire all orders after 60 days.
I’m well under the individual account insurance level, so I’m not worried about actually losing my money. But why go through the trouble if I don’t have to? I’d be really upset if something did happen and my account was inaccessible.
I have been with TS for about 8 years and love it. You can do just about anything you want in any format and any or all of it can be automated. Would be glad to help you work through the set up, just ding me….can even layout your page on my machine and email it to you. They also have a VERY active forum with a ton of people that will answer questions very quickly.
A big asset is being able to write custom indicators and searches. You can easily write a custom entry, or exit, or automate your entire trading if you want and with very little trouble.
Try thinkorswim. If they don’t have something you want, just call the CEO Tom Sosnoff and he will get it done for you. Great brokerage.
Stay away from MB Trading..the outages in their systems is simply amazing. This spring their servers were down for a whole day. Even the phone system went down because they did not have proper backup. I tried calling all numbers all day and finally somebody answered the one working line. They have fixed some but I never get outages with IB or Tradestation which I recommend strongly. Tradestation charting and flexibilty just cant be beat.
Well, I already write to Dave blog about my broker. My direct access broker is really good especially in support and quality of execution. It is also based on Penson clearing, custody etc so shorting availability is same as was for Cyber (I think). I described my experiences and also details about their software on my pages.
Their have commissions per trade and also per share, and if you are high volume trader then you can negotiate and obtain your own fees.
I opened an account with thinkorswim about two months ago and have been very happy. Since a few people have already mentioned thinkorswim I thought I’d share my experience.
The good stuff:
* Customer service rocks. They are really on top of things.
* Commissions and fees are competitive, but not as cheap as Interactive Brokers.
* They offer a lot of different order types (e.g., one cancels other) and you can set up conditionals like having an order execute at a specific time.
* Options trading is really nice. You trade strategies rather than individual contracts. For example, if you have a vertical on the SPY you’ll see it listed as a vertical with the options used in the strategy beneath.
* The charting package is great. For example, you can link a set of charts then when you change the ticker in one chart the others are automatically updated. This is great for being able to see a stock/index/futures contract across different time frames.
* If you’re into shadowtrader you can listen to the audio feed and participate in the chat room.
* PaperMoney was great for learning the platform. Between PaperMoney and the tutorial videos I was comfortable with the software after about a month.
* Order execution has been great, but I don’t trade as often as others do.
* The TOS Index Watch is awesome. You can get a Christmas Tree view for the popular indexes as well as for any watch list you create. You also get the advance-decline issues, volume, and capital numbers.
Here’s my criticism:
* The CBOE put-call ratio isn’t available
* The US Dollar Index is also not available
* Alerts. There’s only one sound for all alerts, which is pretty lame (I like different sounds for the various market internals as well as for different stocks). I also have to re-enter alerts after they’ve been triggered, which is a pain for things like the TRIN or TICK.
* Watch List. The watch list feature is pretty basic. While you can have multiple lists the only way to view several lists at once is to open each into its own window. I’d prefer to have a dashboard that would display multiple lists.
* Auto-Trading. While auto-trading is available, it is only offered for select newsletters. It’s nothing like what you get with TradeStation or eSignal.
* News. There’s no visual or audible indicator that there’s a new article for a stock you’re trading or watching.
In short, for a free software package and competitive commissions it doesn’t get better than this. I would definitely recommend it for the accounts you’re moving from ETrade, but you might not find it sufficient for day trading.
Cheers,
Erik P
I’m really happy with Ameritrade. Execution seems solid to me. I am however opening a TOS account to better support my options trading, as Ameritrade hasn’t been the best for learning the options world.
My only issue with ThinkorSwim was the minimum $5 on each trade (0.015 a share) – but I’m obsessed with lowering trading costs – but that is 5x what IB charges and it adds up over time. Now, in contrast, I’ve got IB with Quotetracker – pretty damn good as well. Of course, if you have a Mac and want to trade, I don’t think there is any option that can beat ThinkorSwim. And if you’re an options trader (I am not), thinkorswim simply has the best tool set I’ve seen.
The thinkorswim application is a bit “different” from other apps – but it works fine once you get to know it.
Tradestation has a great platform – and it’s cheap if you trade a lot through them. They also have an open platform (thinkorswim is still closed as far as I know) so custom indicators are out. Tradestation also has some great tools for backtesting strategies if that is your bag.
Tradestation’s short list tends to be small – and they pay no interest on cash holding as far as I remember – that’s really where they make all their money imho.
I have accounts at IB and MBTrading – both work fine for me but I’m not really “stressing” them like I expect others are. I trade mainly EOD strategies so they work fine for me and are cheap.
IB doesn’t pay interest on first $10k, MB does via a sweep account.
Looks like thinkorswim offers ok rates on cash – with a different rate for accounts over $25k.
Anyhoo – just some random thoughts on this stuff.
One other thing that I forgot to add is that if you use a program like Microsoft Money or Quicken it’s a bit of a pain to download transactions. You have to download and import the file rather than having the program directly download the data from thinkorswim/Penson Financial.
- Erik P
How about Fidelity? I’m really surprised no one has mentioned it. It’s excellent for your long term account – high interest on money markets, no account fees, lots of transaction fee free mutual funds, free dividend reinvestment, an excellent and constantly improving website, and more features and services than are available at any other discount brokerage. Also they have unlimited insurance for your account.
Also check out http://www.wealth-lab.com which is their WealthLab Pro Service. Free to use and awesome for programming and backtesting trading strategies. Check out the discussion boards at wealthlab.
Although I am not good at day-trading, I am switching from E-trade to IB. The high priced stocks were getting expensive if you weren’t trading in 1000 sized lots. IB has low fees but I am trying out their demo station and finding it confusing.
Vanguard has a brokerage where you can park your long-term stuff (assuming you don’t trade it) — $25 commish will keep you from doing that.
Mike,
I think this is still the only broker with server side “alerts”. Last I checked, Tradestation alerts are held on your PC, so if you lose your connection you could be out of gas. Of course you could submit sophisticated orders which are held by your broker, but I’m sure you’re like me and prefer to use the alerts due to it’s stealth. Server side alerts are a huge deal for me, so I’m not sure if there is even another option out there. I’m unhappy with certain things about the new platform, but after a lengthy conversation with a Schwab rep. today, I decided to stick it out a bit. They assured me that they are getting a ton of pressure to fix some of the issues mentioned above for the active traders. They also told me that since they now have one team developing one platform vs. two, that they should bring updates to market quicker. We’ll see I guess. Good Luck,
Joey
I’ve been with TD Ameritrade for years and IB for quite awhile. The combination of IB’s excellent order execution, free QuoteTracker (hooked to an IB market data feed or DTN.IQ/InterQuote) for intraday charting, and Ameritrade’s StrategyDesk for long term charting works really well. QuoteTracker is a gem. IB order types are extremely flexible and you’ll find bracketed limit orders to be quite nice.
If you want a “professional level” package look at CQG + DTN.IQ. Nothing in the consumer space really compares to what the big banks have though.
Mike, I have accounts at Ameritrade, Fidelity and IB. If you really want access to short shares, the more accounts the merrier.
I trade on a Mac, and the IB system works quite well. You need a lot of RAM and top video or it’ll churn occasionally swapping out and get a bit glitchy on the video. Only happens after a long day of heavy data flow or if I let it sleep during the trading day. I’ve been trying to postpone the upgrades until next year, so they’re not that serious. Running on a dual G5 tower with 2.5GB RAM right now.
I’m not sure about the comment regarding the non-intuitiveness of their interface. Makes sense to me. Hard to place a market order though, but I never do anyway. I don’t scalp, but if I did I would look for faster ways to place an order.
Their commissions are impossible to beat. But they nickle and dime you on fees for EVERYTHING.
The upside is that you can stash your money in alternate currencies and trade directly on foreign exchanges. I trade a lot in Canada on TSX and Venture exchange, and IB has been a godsend for me there.
IB customer service is absolutely terrible though. Fidelity customer service is excellent, as is Ameritrade.
You can’t beat IB on their commissions, but I find the interface a little clunky. They also have very good execution speed and I have had few reliabilty problems in the year I’ve been with them. I was thinking of using some API to make the interface more user friendly.
Does anyone know if it is possible to use “simulated trading” using the webbased application on thinkorswirm?
Thanks
IB linked to Quote Tracker for me
Been using TS for many, many years. Stops are kept on TS servers. When Comcast goes out, it’s a life saver as you know. I day trade for a living last 8+ years, wouldn’t use anything else.
I prefer the straight forward competitive pricing coupled with the charting power and flexibility of TS. The myriad of order types, custom chart options, excellent pricing and back testing makes TS miles ahead of anything I have used, reviewed or demo’d in years past.
Once you use TS you won’t look back.
Here’s my two cents… I’ve dealt with IB customer service many times and never had a wait and never a problem. Yes, it takes quite a bit to get used to their interface, but for me it’s been worth it. Minimum trade is 2.50. I trade the Spys in 500 share lots. I’m in and out twenty times a day depending on volatitily, that’s a total of 100 bucks in fees. Who can beat that? I set up multiple conditional orders with brackets so I can leave my station for an hour. Yes, wish they had the put/call ratio. Wish their charts were a bit clearer, wish I could back test strategies like TradeStation, but have found IB to be incredibly professional. Taxes at the end of the year is one button and bingo you have Schedule D.
I also have Scottrade Elite, I parked a bunch of mutual funds there to get to their 25 grand limit and receive their Trade Ideas for free. I have several hundred charts that I can rapidly flip through for gap ideas in the morning, otherwise they are useless. I’d never use them to trade.
Fenner – here’s a question – why are you trading 500 share lots of the SPY? Why not just trade one ES (mini SPX contract) contract? I guess the fees would be about the same (roughly $100 for 20 round turns) but the execution, I would guess, would be cleaner. Also, you’d get a much better tax treatment with 40% of any gains being automatically put to long term capital gains vs. short term capital gains (15% tax rate vs. whatever your income tax rate is).
Just a comment…
Tradestation is a great product without a doubt – if you’re day trading it’d be tough to match given that the price drops substantially with a lot of trades. Thinkorswim is pretty nice too – you’d have to compare what you’d be paying via the more expensive commissions at TorS vs. Tradestation (or IB).
For me IB + Quotetracker is good enough – but it definitely doesn’t have the bells of Tradestation.
Streetsmack,
Stops or Bracket orders are always held at the broker (or venue) because they are live orders. Alerts are different. They trigger and then submit the “live” order. Most software like Quotetracker or Tradestation (I believe) hold the alerts on the local pc. Cybertrader, and now Schwab actually hold the alert on their server. They are the only ones I know of that do this.
Joey
Here is the 2007 broker ratings from Barron’s – take a look.
You might discover a diamond in the rough.